Many will stop here without continuing to read further. We won't give you anything that isn't in scripture. The Bible is the final authority. I ask you to check the Bible and be open, and teachable. Paul commended the church of the Bereans for testing what he was saying and comparing it to scripture first (Acts 17:10,11) . He praised them because he knew that the Bible was the final authority and he wouldn't want us to just take man's word for it.
Moving back to the subject, if you're still with us, then please check out these verses about the Holy Spirit. We are taught that there are three in the godhead, but throughout the chapter of John, it talks about the relationship between the Father and the Son. The holy Spirit is nowhere in this.
And what we've found is that the holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father. Here is what we have found:
Compare both verses which are speaking of the very same instance, but one is in Matthew and one is in Luke.
"But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost." Mark 13:11-13
"But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:19,20
See this? One says that it is the Holy Ghost speaking in us, but then the next one says that it is the Spirit of our Father that speaks in us. The Bible does not contradict itself. These are obviously speaking of the same Spirit, which is God the Father.
Next,
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom 8:11
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit." 1 Peter 3:18
"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)" Gal 1:1
So, is it the holy Spirit that was in Christ that quickened Him from the dead, or was it God the Father who raised Him from the dead? Again, there is no contradiction. They must be speaking of the same Spirit, which is the Father's Spirit.
Before I go further, here is proof that God the Father is a Spirit:
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Genesis 1:2
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24
Now that we've clarified that, let's move on.
It was the Holy Ghost that came upon Mary and gave her the fruit of the womb, which was Christ (Matthew 1:20) but Jesus is the Son of God the Father. Was He conceived by the Holy Ghost? Is He the Son of the Holy Ghost or the Father? It wouldn't make sense unless both were speaking of the one and same Spirit.
Next,
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" 1 Cor 6:19
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" 1 Cor 3:16
"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." 2 Cor 6:16
"That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us." 2 Tim 1:14
*The blue is to show who dwells in us, and the red is to show whose temple we are.
So.. are we the temple of God the Father, or of the Holy Ghost? God said He will dwell in us, and the Bible says that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. Our conclusion is that we are the temple of God the Father's holy Spirit, and that He dwells in us. But, we'd rather have you check and study the scripture for your own conclusion. Hopefully, we are helping provide information for you to look into for yourselves. The key is that if it is truth, then see if it matches everything else! Test the scriptures!
Here are some more to think about:
The OT constantly refers to God the Father as "the Spirit of God." *(italics added for emphasis)
Example: "And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly." 1 Samuel 11:6
"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me." Isaiah 48:16
"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound" Isaiah 61:1
"Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD." Ezekiel 39:29
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" Acts 2:17
(note: the Bible says that when Jesus was on earth, it was during the last days. When Jesus left, the Spirit of God was sent and given to us, just as God promised.)
Here is something interesting:
"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Cor 12:13
Are they talking about two different beings with the Spirit of God and the Holy Ghost? Let's check the Greek translation:
"Spirit (Pneuma meaning Spirit/blast) of God (Theos meaning diety)" and "Holy (hagios meaning sacred and most holy) Ghost (Pneuma again, meaning Spirit).
There is no reason that Spirit and Ghost would be written differently, both have the same translation. "The Spirit of God" and "The most holy Spirit." Again, this verse is talking about the one and same Spirit.
Here's another:
"He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit." 1 Thess 4:8
This one doesn't capitalize "Holy" although it is the same word as above: "hagios" which means most holy and sacred. Why would the verse above capitalize "Holy" and the verse below not capitalize "holy?" Keep an eye out and be keen over punctuations and capitalization in the English translation.
God has given us HIS holy Spirit. God is a Spirit and He is holy. He gives us His holy Spirit.
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." 1 John 4:12,13
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Eph 4:30 *(not capitalized again, but is this more clear? I hope so!)
"Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." 2 Cor 3:3
"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:11
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." 1 John 4:12,13
The Bible also tells us that God the Father is the Father of spirits (plurality in Heb 12:9), and in Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6, it tells us that God has sent seven Spirits to the world.
The Bible mainly speaks of God the Father loving His Son and giving all things to His Son. It testifies of their relationship. Jesus is one with the Father, and the Father is one with Jesus, and they dwell in us and make their abode in us (John 14:23). The holy Spirit (if a third person) is never mentioned in this unification.
Try these verses out and see if they fit. If it is truth, then it will fit them all from the Old Testament to the New Testament.
11 comments:
More good food for thought. Going to share this with some friends.
I'm hoping I don't come across wrong - please forgive me if I do. First off, why do you say the Bible is the final authority? It still has to be interpreted (as you are doing), and I'm curious as to why you think your interpretation is correct verses anyone else's. Again, I'm not trying to come across as attacking, but that seems rather prideful to me (I am speaking as one who often struggles with pride). I guess where I'm coming from here, is that I have been guilty of reading Scripture and drawing a conclusion in the past that made perfect sense to me, but turned out to be wrong, yet my pride didn't allow me to see that for years. It just seems prideful to me to think that I would've gotten it right and that people for 2000 years had gotten it wrong, you know? But that's what I was doing.
Second, the Bible was not fully compiled until the 400s, and the majority were not literate, nor were books widely available since they had to be copied by hand, so it seems rather anachronistic. Finally, the Bible itself tells us that we should follow the Traditions taught both written and by word of mouth (2 Thes 2:15, I believe). Peter says that Paul's writings are difficult to understand, too.
About the Holy Spirit, perhaps this link would be of interest to you: http://scripturecatholic.com/the_holy_spirit.html It shows Scripture references and quotes from early Christians regarding the Trinity.
God bless
Just wanted to add that I hope I wasn't harsh in that last post, and that I wasn't projecting my own struggles onto you. :)
May I ask what you think of the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19) which gives the command to "make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"?
God bless
No offense taken :) The Bible actually tells us that by His Spirit, we are able to understand His Word. He gives us the mind of Christ. He gives us His truth. Some verses to prove this:
"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." 1 Cor 2:16
"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." John 14:17
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31,32
And about 2 Thess 2:15, there are many traditions and words of mouth, but Paul said specifically "by word, or OUR epistle." Just like the verse that says "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." in Gal 1:8, many will claim that it is true of their gospel, but Paul meant specifically this one he has given us by the Lord Jesus.
Whatever we hear, let us be like the church of the Bereans and check scripture first because of it's authority. They even checked what the apostle Paul was saying! The Word of God is not of man. Paul gave it to us by the revelation of Jesus Christ (Gal 1:12) and the disciples wrote it by quoting Christ Himself in the flesh and by them being led of the Spirit (2 Peter 1:20,21) They even specifically said this wasn't by any private interpretation but by the Spirit of God.
I can't find anywhere that says we must rely on men to interpret scripture. Like the verse above says, who knows the mind of God to be able to instruct it? But WE have the mind of Christ, and His Spirit to lead us into all truth. He wants to give us truth because we are His disciples.
Hope this helps, and I also don't want to "teach" or be the authority of scripture, but to bring things to people's attention and cause them to ask questions. I want them to search in scriptures for answers themselves and to ask God for truth. We should never take anyone's word for it, and I hope that you don't just take my word for it either. Only God is infallible.
I understand where you're coming from. :-)
I know we've been given the Holy Spirit, I don't dispute that. However, we are still sinful, fallen individuals, and we still get it wrong. If we look at all the different things out there, with all the various sects claiming that they are right and are led by the Holy Spirit and yet teaching contradictory things, then we see that they can't all be led to that conclusion by the Holy Spirit. I'm not saying they're being deliberately misleading or anything – I think most people make their claims with good intentions. But we do sometimes get it wrong, and thus need an authority, which God has given to us in the Church. The Bible even tells us that it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). I found a good page that explains it better than I: http://www.aboutcatholics.com/faith_beliefs/bible_alone/
Regarding 2 Thes 2:15, the point remains that Paul gives instructions for them to follow oral teachings, not just those that are written. I fully agree that any teachings should not contradict the Scriptures, but I don't think they must be found explicitly in Scripture, especially given that at the time that Paul was teaching, all Scripture had not been written.
A quick point about infallibility – do you agree that the Scripture writers were infallible when writing Scripture? Not in other things, but in that specific area of writing Scripture? That is what Catholics believe, and we believe that God continues to bestow the charism of infallibility on the Church in certain specific instances so that She cannot teach errors in matters of faith and morals so that the Body of Christ is not led astray.
God bless.
This video may interest you since the man seems to heal deafness and has a prophetic gift:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8UdhhQULLg
Hope this helps, But as with all, check and make sure it is of the Lord.
I agree with you that we all are sinful, fallen creatures. But, aren't these men who you claim to be the authority, sinful, fallen creatures also? 1 Peter 5:3 says for them to be godly examples, but not to usurp authority over what belongs to God. The Bible was written to you from God, and He desires to speak directly to you. This confusion we find in churches are because they get their word from man, which is falliable, but God desires to teach you and to guide you personally. He made it this way so that He could have a direct connection with you, with Christ as the mediator, the Spirit as a teacher, and you entering into the veil with direct access to God. I cannot agree that God bestowed infalliablility upon the scripture writers. Firstly, because it is never mentioned in the Bible. We also have seen in scriptures how falliable these men were. They wrote that it was not from themselves, but that they were guided by the Spirit to move and write. But even without scripture, God said He would write in our minds and hearts also. There are believers in other countries unable to read the Bible because it is banned there, but they have the Spirit of God. No one is perfect or infalliable, but it is God that makes us perfect through Him. He imputed His holy righteousness upon us as a gift, not of works we have to do ourselves. I just hope you see how all of this is meant for you, and that while we are not perfect, He is, and He desires a direct relationship with you, teaching you all things and guiding you into all truth. Even with our errors, these are lessons He desires us to learn from. He is patient with us (very patient with me LOL).
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Phil 3:15
He will correct us when we are wrong, and teach us from our mistakes. It is an ongoing journey and He continues to perfect this in us all the way till the end. (1 Phil 1:6)
Hope this helps! Sorry I haven't replied sooner. I haven't been online the past several days.
Let this be a lesson to me to always copy my response before submitting - just lost my response. Oh well. Anyway, no worries about the timing. I'm trying to only get on for "debates" once a week, so never feel like you need to rush or anything. :-)
OK, let's see if I can remember what I wrote. First, I think I perhaps wasn't clear about infallibility earlier, so I'll try again. Do you believe that Scripture (including the canon) is inerrant? If so, then that's what I mean by infallibility, that, because of God working through them, the Scripture writers and compilers were infallible in those instances. It doesn't apply to everything they did or said, of course. In the same way, we believe that God ensures that the Church cannot teach error in matters of faith and morals so that we are not led astray.
I hope that helps.
Hi, thanks for your reply. I do believe that if it is God-led, then it is inerrant, yes. God's standards are perfection. When he spoke through a prophet in the OT, it would always come true. If a prophet predicted something 99% right, but 1% wrong, then we are taught not to regard him and to acknowledge he is not from God.
I do believe that God gave us these scriptures, but I do believe that these scriptures alone from beginning to end is a complete book. That is why He tells us in Rev not to add or take away anything from His book. Why would He do that if He wanted us to continue after the book? There are so many deceptions, distortion and confusion out there in the world because men have taken it upon themselves to add or take away things from the Bible beyond scripture. Not just Catholic leaders, but even Christian churches also as well as JW, Mormons, etc.
I believe that the revelations given to us from God are within the scriptures He has provided us, allowing us to see it for what it really is beyond the surface, but never outside of it. Men are full of errors, but only when they are led by the Spirit, are they able to see the truth. But, How can we trust anyone that claims to have the truth? There are so many ravenous wolves out there that will call Him Lord and say that He is the Christ, but be sons of perdition seeking to devour His sheep (according to the Bible). But Jesus is the good Shepherd, and His sheep hear his voice. They won't be deceived if they go to Him.
Hope you had a happy Thanksgiving! I have a few moments, so I thought I'd go ahead and write this out. :-)
Glad we're in agreement about Scripture being inerrant then. :-)
I don't think that verse in Revelation can be used to refer to the whole Bible. In context, it is speaking specifically of the book of Revelation. It would also be contradictory to other Scripture to not use Sacred Tradition, since we are called to follow the oral Apostolic teachings as well, as per St Paul's instructions. Obviously any Tradition cannot contradict Scripture, though, so I'm not saying Scripture isn't important. It's extremely important, and we should spend time reading and studying it. But if my interpretations contradict what has been the historic, Traditional understanding of the passage, I shouldn't assume that I'm correct and that they were wrong. We absolutely should study the Bible on our own, but we also need authority to ensure that error/heresy is not taught - this, too, is Scriptural. After all, when St Paul told the Corinthians that women had to pray with their heads covered, he didn't tell them to search the Scriptures and come to their own interpretation, but said that this is something all the churches pratice and thus is to be followed (he invites them to examine it, but to come to a different conclusion).
God bless!
Hi, thanks for your patience in replying back & forth. I haven't been on blogger recently due to some events happening in my family recently. Anyways, thanks for your reply. When Paul talked about praying with their hair covered, it wasn't technically a command, but that he referred it as something we observe by nature. It is unnatural for man to have long hair, and natural for woman to have her hair as a covering. I agree with you though that if tradition contradicts scripture, we should question it. But we have to be careful not to be caught up with man's traditions. Jesus rebuked the pharisees for adding their traditions to scriptural doctrine (taste not, handle not, etc). Jesus never really spoke about man's traditions in a good way and saw it as a hindrance. Some churches have a lot of traditions, but none can be found anywhere in the Bible. I also cannot find anywhere that Paul claimed himself as an authority, or that anyone should be an authority when it comes to biblical interpretation. I know that there can be so many different interpretations of God's Word out there in the world with so many denominations, but I actually believe that would be reduced dramatically if man didn't go by other men as authority. There's been so much confusion and division out there, and it's been the cause of that. Perhaps if we all sought truth from God's Word alone, and sought after His Spirit for guidance and came together as the body of Christ seeking Him purely, things would be a lot different. So many claim themselves after Calvin, after Spurgeon, after Luther, after their church's doctrine, and so forth.. that it's done more harm than good to be honest. Paul also pointed only to Christ when others tried to follow him and claim his name. I guess our difference is that you might view Paul as an authority over scripture, and I just view Paul as one of us. What God gave Him, is what He gives us also: His truth and His Spirit.
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