Thursday, April 1, 2010

The Lord Jesus Christ vs The Roman Catholic Church 3

Here we conclude the three part study of The Lord Jesus Christ vs the Roman Catholic Church. Click to read PART 1, or click to read PART 2 if you have not read those yet.

  • The Lord's Supper vs. The Eucharist

The Eucharist is another glaring atrocity in the RCC. A lot of Catholics may look at the Eucharist as a symbol, in remembering what the Lord did for us. This is how we should look at it. However, this is not what the RCC says about the Eucharist in the catechism. The catechism claims that this is a literal sacrifice of Christ, and that it is a crucial "Sacrament" to their faith. They incriminate themselves (i'm thumbing through this link from the catechism):

"It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament."

Do you see what this is saying? This institution claims that a priest converts the bread and wine into Christ! Words can't express how bad this is! It is pure evil to teach this, and to believe this is the case. If you didn't know the RCC advocates this, there it is in plain English from their own catechism. Leave this system! God wants you to! Repent from all of this and come to Christ! He will embrace you and reveal Himself to you, I promise. What does God say about the sacrifice of Christ? This is extremely important.

Hebrews 9:
11] But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; [12] Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[23] It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [24] For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: [25] Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; [26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

These verses very plainly show that Jesus Christ was sacrificed once for all sin, and it satisfied God the Father forever. Jesus is never sacrificed again, He is seated at the right hand of the Father. He does not come into a wafter and die again. That is a very serious error that God will judge when the time comes.

What should the Lord's Supper be then?

Luke 22: [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 1 Corinthians 11: [23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: [24] And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. [25] After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The Lord's Supper is something we do to remember His sacrifice for our sins, by His one time death on the cross. Personally, I think it can be any meal that we choose to remember Him with. It doesn't have to be a wafer and wine, it can be anything we choose. God doesn't limit us to rituals. By partaking in the Eucharist, you are sinning against God and you will be held accountable to Him. Please, I beg you to leave the RCC! Their blasphemous beliefs are in plain sight, and the Word of God exposes them very clearly!

  • Scripture vs. Tradition

I will start this section with the same verses from Revelation 22 that I posted earlier.

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

God's Word is final. It is complete. We are forbidden to add or subtract to it, it stands as a whole. This is very important to soak in. There is no adding traditions or rituals to God's Word. It is what it is, and that's it.

What does the Catholic Church do? Add traditions of men and rituals, of course. They have added confessional, in which the priest will absolve sin. They encourage repetitive "Haily Mary" prayers with rosary beads. They command not to eat meat on Fridays during Lent. They set up a system of Sacraments in which a person can hope (!) and not assume(!) they are saved! They forbid priests and nuns to marry, and they pray to dead saints. I'm sure there are many more, but I will expose these with what God's Word has to say about them.

1 Timothy 4
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
[3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
[4] For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
[5] For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Paul, through the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is calling out the Catholic Church here (although probably not exclusively), quite obviously. He calls their traditions "doctrines of devils!" This is very strong language. He rebukes their lies, the forbidding of marriage and abstaining from meat! Nobody is forbidden to marry, the Bible says nothing of it. Marriage is encouraged (1 Corinthians 7, among other passages). We are allowed to eat anything we want, there is no Scripture that forbids us during any time period throughout the year. Lent isn't even in the Bible, it's a made up man-made tradition! Who do you choose to listen to? God in His Word, or what a blasphemous "Church" has to say?

What does Jesus say about prayer?

Matthew 6:
[5] And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

When you see a Pope or Bishop or anyone praying with their hands clasped in front of a crowd, you have to wonder as to what their intentions are. Are they earnestly seeking the Lord or are they seeking attention and their own reverence? God honors the prayers that are made in secret, and that are from the heart. He doesn't want you chanting repetitious nonsense over and over again! Do you think He has a hard time hearing? Do you think He honors robots? God wants a people to love Him from their hearts, not to be disconnected and chant requests with no feeling. Also, things like the Hail Mary aren't even directed to Him! They are prayers to idols!

God's Word on the forgiveness of sin:

1 Timothy 2:
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 8:
[6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Mark 2:
[10] But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,

Luke 5:
[20] And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
[21] And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Colossians 2:
[13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him (Christ), having forgiven you all trespasses;

John 1:
[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Romans 11:
27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I (Christ) shall take away their sins.

Acts 13:
[38] Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man (Christ) is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

God alone has the power to forgive sins, through the spilled blood of Jesus Christ! No man has any chance in the world, I don't care if it's the blasphemously exalted Pope, he has no power whatsoever! Jesus Christ is the only mediator, and through Him is the only way sins are forgiven!

Even the Pharisees knew that God alone could forgive sins, and they didn't get much right! Some of the Gospels consist of Jesus' blasting them! (Note the similarities between the Pharisees of old and the modern day Catholic Priest system. Jesus knows everything.)

What does our Lord say regarding praying to saints? First, let's learn about what happens to people when they die. This could be a blog of its own, but I will give you the short version here.

1 Corinthians 15:
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
[6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

[17] And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
[18] Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Thessalonians 4:
13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Matthew 9:
[24] He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

John 11:
[11] These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
[12] Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
[13] Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
[14] Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Now I know this is highly controversial, but the Bible clearly uses the term "asleep" or "sleepeth" to describe the state of the dead before Christ returns. Jesus Himself says it throughout the gospels. It's truth.

With that being said, any and all "saints" in the Catholic faith are dead. So what does God say about praying to the dead? Before we get into that, remember the Second Commandment? We are commanded not to pray to anyone or anything other than the Lord! If that hasn't convinced you yet, let's look further. Please read 1 Samuel 28:3-20. Also, this website shows many other verses as to why praying to saints is not scriptural.

Are we saved by faith alone or do works play a role in salvation, as the RCC teaches? I have already address this to some extent in an earlier blog entitled "Evidence of Salvation and Faith Evidenced by Works." I encourage you to read the bottom third of the entry or so. The top part isn't a bad read either, if you have the time. ;)

Does purgatory exist? The Roman Catholic Church teaches that it does, and scares its members into giving money for the hope that they can shorten a loved one's sentence. Do you believe them, or will you believe what Almighty God has to say? First, the verses on sleep that I showed you teach us through God's Word that the dead are dead. They aren't anywhere else but the grave right now. It's all over Scripture. With that being said, how can there be a Purgatory? Do a Bible search for that word, you won't find anything. Hades is the state of the dead, the grave. So is sheol. It's not gehenna either. Don't try too hard, it doesn't exist in the Word. Here is one verse that closes the book on Purgatory for all eternity:

Hebrews 9:
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

A final point: doesn't the idea of purgatory suggest that Christ's sacrifice wasn't good enough? I hope you realize that it was definitely good enough, and through His blood we are redeemed and justified to the Father! We don't need to spend time in limbo to earn our way to Him!

  • Conclusion
This has been a very great and time consuming undertaking, but I have done it for the Lord's Glory and for His Truth. I have done it because I care about those trapped in the Roman Catholic Church, and I want to see them free from that bondage. I want them to experience true salvation and a true relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, because the one in the RCC is a counterfeit. I know I came on very strong in this blog entry, and that I was blunt. The truth cannot compromise, and I have to tell you like it is. I pray that you soak this up and examine it through the Bible. Read, read, read. God's Word will mold you, and you will see the errors of the Catholic system. The more you learn of the Lord, the further He will distance you from "doctrines of devils."

Please, if you get something from this, pass it on! That goes for born again Christians too. This has to get out there, because the Christian world has embraced Rome as one of their own, while that can't be further from the truth. Nobody wants to stand up for this anymore. The reformers knew it in the 1600s, and this voice existed strongly until the dawn of the 20th century or so. It's been stifled with ecumenism and a very lukewarm Body of Christ. Let's stand up for the Lord and do something for Him. Let's separate ourselves from the world, and learn of the Lord from His Word alone, and conform to it. Make a difference! Jesus told us not to hide our light under a table. Embrace being radical for Him. We aren't on this earth to compromise, we are here to live holy lives for the God who has given us eternal life. We are the only light this darkened world will ever see, and we are commanded to teach the gospel to the lost!

I thank you dearly for reading this entry, if you got this far. There's no prize for finishing this, except maybe the gift of eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ. :) I pray He touches the hearts of anyone who came across this.

I welcome any and all comments you have. May the Lord bless you.

A Voice in the Wilderness



Wow! A lot of work went into that blog. I personally cannot understand how a person who claims to be a Christian can view the church as the ultimate authority. The church is the submissive bride of Christ. These traditions and rituals are so similar to the practices of the Scribes and Pharisees. We know what Jesus thought of them.

Susan said...

The truth of the Eucharist is actually what ultimately brought me into the Church. Read John 6. Jesus repeatedly says that they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood to have life. I used to argue that it couldn't truly be His Blood, because consuming blood was forbidden in the OT. Then I looked at why it was forbidden - it was forbidden because the blood contained the life. Wow! So then I looked at John 6 again, and Jesus is very clear and explicit. The people understand Him to be speaking literally, and they walk away, and He doesn't call them back or correct them - that would surely be negligent on His part! That also doesn't fit in with what He does when misunderstood in other cases. Like with Nicodemus, when he takes Jesus to mean that he would have to be literally born again, Jesus corrects him. When the disciples and apostles misunderstand, He corrects them. But in John 6, when people misunderstand, and his apostles say it's a hard saying, Jesus responds "are you going to leave, too?".

By the way, it is not from any inherent power of the priest that the Eucharist becomes the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ - it is from the power of God acting through the priest. Just as God acted through Moses and Elijah and Peter and Paul, He acts through the priest. It is not another sacrifice, but makes Jesus' one sacrifice present to us here and now.

God bless.

A Voice in the Wilderness said...

Thanks for your reply. I have a question however. You mentioned that God acts through a priest. I cannot find that anywhere in scripture except that Jesus has become our high priest and one mediator between man and God. The old covenant has passed away and Jesus is the fulfillment thereof. Check out these verses:

"Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (covenant)

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

And having an high priest over the house of God." Hebrews 10:7-21

Also please read Hebrews 7, 8, 9 and 10 for an in-depth explanation of the before and after, the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant, and how we now have one High Priest (Jesus Christ) making intercessory between us and God as our only mediator between God and man. The old way (Levitical Priesthood) was not perfect in the sight of God, but was a shadow of things to come for the perfect, eternal, High Priest after the order of Melchisedec, that is Christ Jesus.

His blood is definitely a life-giver, but just as He is the bread of life, His flesh is our Word, and His blood is us accepting His sacrifice that give us atonement.

Archaeology cat said...

The first question should be whether God works through people, either in the Old or New Testaments. That answer is yes. He works through Moses to work the miracles in Egypt, for example. In the New Testament, He works through Peter to heal a man, so clearly God didn't stop working through His followers after Jesus' sacrifice.

It is true that God says he takes no pleasure in the burnt offerings, but the Mass is not an OT sacrifice. It is a participation in the one pure sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The OT sacrifices couldn't take away our sins, but the sacrifice of Christ can. It is this sacrifice that is made present in the Mass – not a re-sacrifice, but our mystical participation in that one sacrifice.

The NT priesthood is not the Levitical priesthood, and I agree with you that the Levitical priesthood is not what is needed.

I have no argument with Hebrews 10. The Catholic Church definitely teaches that the Old Covenant is no longer applicable, and that we should not participate in it.

I also agree fully with Hebrews 7-9. Jesus is our High Priest in the order of Melchisadek. Interestingly, Melchisadek offered a sacrifice of bread and wine, a foreshadowing of the Eucharist. Hebrews 8 tells us that Jesus is ministering in the Heavenly sanctuary, offering that one sacrifice. It also tells us that multiple sacrifices are meaningless, but as I said before, the Mass is not a new sacrifice, but a participation in that one sacrifice.

God bless

Archaeology cat said...

Do you have something in Scripture or Tradition to back up that His Blood is merely us accepting His sacrifice? This doesn't seem to fit with the precedent of the Passover sacrifice, where it was necessary to consume the sacrifice, not just offer it. That also doesn't fit with Jesus' own words in John 6, where He says “51"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."  52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"  53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.  54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.  55"For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.  56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.” So we see in Jesus' words that He is speaking literally. When the Jews ask how this shall be, He doesn't say “No, I didn't mean that literally”, but he repeats it, saying “Amen, amen”.

God bless

A Voice in the Wilderness said...

Jesus did say that whoever eats of His flesh, and drinks of His blood will live forever, but then people were offended and left him. They thought He meant it literally and they weren't about to become cannibals! We must understand the Spiritual things of God by the Spirit, but to the flesh, it is something bizarre and easily misunderstood. Jesus never meant to literally eat and drink of Him, but to thirst and hunger for righteousness.

Just like the miracle of the loaves and the fish. The people sought after Him because they wanted more food to fill them up physically, but Jesus came to fill them up Spiritually. John 6 is key. The second half of the chapter is when Jesus spoke of eating and drinking of Him.. but the first half of the same chapter is the miracle of the loaves.

When Jesus escaped from them and wandered away, they went and sought Him. Jesus rebuked them because they sought Him for the wrong reasons. They wanted bread they could see and eat of, but not the Spiritual things Jesus came to bring.

"Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." v26,27

"For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." v33-35

When we receive Christ, it is because we hunger and thirst for Him. The error of humanity is that we seek the physical things. We are still looking for a literal loaf of bread, or a wafer. Jesus said to come to HIM, and He will fill us up and satisfy our hunger for righteousness. Come to HIM for everlasting life.

Hope this helps. Forgive me if I appeared impatient before also.

A Voice in the Wilderness said...

Replying to your above post-

I agree God works in us. But with the New Covenant, He also made a new radical way. Jesus Christ was placed as the head of the Church, which is His body. We are the living stones of His Spiritual temple and He is the head cornerstone. We are a royal priesthood.. you are a priest and I am a priest if we are in the body (1 Peter 2:5,9).

Jesus tore the veil in half, so man no longer had to go through a priest to go to God. We have entered the veil of Christ which is His flesh (Heb 10:20), and He is our High Priest, and now we may go boldly before the throne of God for grace and mercy (Hebrews 4:16)

When we receive what Christ has done (Spiritually), we also receive the gift of the holy Spirit that guides us into all things. He writes His law in our hearts and mind. Greater works will He do in us now. It is fulfilled in you, and you are a priest, your body is a temple of God and He has made His abode in you (John 14:23). We don't need ordinances (Eph 2:15, Col 2:14,20, Heb 9:10), observances and traditions (Mark 7:8,9, 13, Col 2:8), a church building, or men to have these things in God. We have been redeemed by Christ once and for all (Hebrews 10:10,12) and now we are to walk in the Spirit.

The old way was carnal and people sought after things they could see and touch. These things were a shadow of things to come for the Spiritual things in God. Let's free ourselves from the carnal things, and walk in the Spirit. He lives in us, and that is all we need.

Personally, I was raised baptist also but I left it a few years ago. I've left the structures and systems, so that I can seek God directly by His Spirit and by His Word. It is so awesome to study about how the NT believers worshiped. They met in their homes, and praised God. They edified each other, shared their gifts, and received the holy Spirit. He is sufficient. :)

A Voice in the Wilderness said...

I forgot, Law being a shadow of things to come: Hebrews 10:1,

and Col 2:14-23 is excellent in showing how our observances, traditions, holy days are all worthless traditions to God, and we are dead to those things now.

Archaeology cat said...

If it's OK, I think I'm going to stick to one topic/post at a time for now. I'm really busy this week, more than usual with 2 kids. I also apologise if I've appeared impatient or uncharitable. Please call me out on that if I am not charitable in my responses.

I'm going to have to break this up because it's long.

Let's look at John 6 some more. We agree that the Jews took Jesus' words literally and left, it seems. Great. So the next point – if Jesus didn't mean those words literally, then why didn't He correct them? Would He not be remiss in that if He allowed them to go off without correcting them? If they left after knowing what He meant, well, so be it, but surely He would want them to have the correct information first, right? Would it not be a lie of omission if He allowed them to think He meant something He didn't, especially when the thing in question has eternal consequences? It also doesn't fit with what He does in John 3 when Nicodemus misunderstood Him and thought He meant a person must be literally born again. Jesus instead corrects Him and explains it. What does He do in John 6 when the Jews misunderstand? He explains it through repeating it, never once saying that they misunderstood Him.

Archaeology cat said...

As for the earlier part of John 6, I agree that it is important in understanding the entire passage. In one way, the bread and fish foreshadows the Eucharist in showing the multiplication, so we understand that Jesus can defy physics and multiple His Presence in the Eucharist. In another way, the miracle of the loaves and fish serves as a contrast to His discourse about His Flesh, for the bread He multiplied could assuage their physical hunger for a time, but could do nothing spiritually, whilst His Flesh and Blood, given to us in the appearance of bread and wine, truly nourishes our spirits by uniting us with Him.

Another good place to look is in 1 Corinthians, where Paul speaks of the Eucharist, and says in 1 Cor 10:16 “16 The blessing-cup, which we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ; and the loaf of bread which we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? “ and again in 1 Cor 11:26-30: “26 Whenever you eat this bread, then, and drink this cup, you are proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes. 27 Therefore anyone who eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily is answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone is to examine himself and only then eat of the bread or drink from the cup; 29 because a person who eats and drinks without recognising the body is eating and drinking his own condemnation. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill and a good number have died. “ If it is not literally His Body and Blood, why is a person answerable for His Body and Blood if they receive unworthily?

Archaeology cat said...

Finally, the early Christians clearly believed the Eucharist to be the Body and Blood of Jesus. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of John the Apostle, wrote this, “"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110). Justin Martyr shared this belief, as shown in this quote, “For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

God bless! (Sorry it's so long! I tend to be rather verbose).

A Voice in the Wilderness said...

"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." Luke 22:19,20

This is a memorial of what Christ did for us. He asks us to remember Him and what He has done. His body was given in a sacrifice for us, and His blood brought the new testament/ aka the new covenant. He never said that it was ever literally His body and blood, or that the Son of God would lower Himself to bread crumbs. He asks us to remember His sacrifice and His purpose, and for us to do this in His honor. Just as He did this with His disciples before His flesh was dead, and before His blood was shed, this obviously was a memorial. It was never meant to be His literal, and physical flesh and blood. Just as the passover lamb was never literally the lamb, but a celebration when they gathered together to remember that time.

If we say that a physical, inanimate object is a vessel for which a god can enter therein, then isn't that the classic definition of idoltary? God is Spirit, and is not in any object.

As of 1 Cor 11, the whole context is speaking of those who come to observe the Lord's supper just to be able to eat and drink to fill their physical need, not to remember Him. Paul rebukes them and said that they all have homes to eat and drink in, but this is a separate thing. They were looking to satisfy their physical need, not their Spiritual need. v25 shows again that Jesus asked to do this in remembrance of Him. I can't find anywhere that says He becomes the bread and the wine physically and literally, and that we will digest and consume Him. This is Spiritual, so that we don't forget who He is and what He has done for us.

A Voice in the Wilderness said...

About John 6, He did not correct them because He knew they seeing could not perceive, and hearing could not understand. They were in the flesh and unable to understand the Spiritual things of God. He knew who was His, because they were given to Him by the Father. This person (the elect) would be taught by God and revealed these things by God. In John 6 as He was speaking these things, we see:

"Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." v43-45

then v64 and down continues:

"But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." v64-71

Jesus knew who would reject these sayings and leave, and who would remain with Him because He chose those twelve and even Judas who had a purpose to remain with Him so that scriptures may be fulfilled. Jesus was surrounded by a mob of disciples, but He spoke those Spiritual things knowing they would be offended (v61) and leave, but He had it so that the true ones that God chose to give to Him (the disciples, also the elect) would remain. He did not bother trying to run after the others and clarify those things in them, because they never truly belonged to Him.

Archaeology cat said...

Yes, Jesus knew some would reject Him - that doesn't mean He lets them go without correcting them if they misunderstand, especially when that misunderstanding has eternal consequences. At this point I don't know what else I can say, except to encourage you to prayerfully look at this. You might also be interested in the miracle at Lanciano:

May God bless you - you are in my prayers.

A Voice in the Wilderness said...

I definitely understand that we would expect that Jesus would explain Himself to the crowd to avoid misunderstandings, but like He said in that same passage, His words are Spirit and life. If Jesus was to speak plainly, then He would've done so instead of speak in nothing else but parables to the crowd (Matt 13:34).

But the beauty is that Jesus would then expound and reveal all things to His disciples afterward in private. He still does that today if we are in Him, but the key is, that we must go to Him.


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